During his long career, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who died on January 7, 2025 at the age of 96, engaged in a plethora of debates with his opponents. Often explosive face-to-face encounters, some of which remain particularly memorable. Notably the one with Bernard Tapie (died in 2021), December 8, 1989 on TF1.
At the time, the founder of the National Front sat in the European Parliament. His opponent, ex-boss of Olympique de Marseille, is for his part a deputy related to the socialist presidential majority. Both are invited alongside representatives of civil society as part of a special program dedicated to an increasingly important theme in the country: migratory pressure.
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“If there is one subject on which all our guests here will agree […], is that today, the hottest debate, the hottest topic on the news […]this is the debate on immigration and integration”thus introduces Patrick Poivre d'Arvor, host of the program – immortalized in the archives of the National Audiovisual Institute (Ina). “They just have to go back to their country”, “there are too many of them” or, conversely, “it is a wealth for France”, for their part, let out citizens during a sidewalk microphone broadcast before the debate.
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Lots of punchlines
While PPDA recalls the difficulties encountered by the first channel in France to organize such an exchange – due to the refusal of many elected officials to confront Jean-Marie Le Pen – Bernard Tapie begins by explaining why he gave his agreement . “Should we publicize the FN? Nobody has decided […] I believe that, fundamentally, we must agree to debate and meet all those who have ideas contrary to ours”justifies the former businessman, however denouncing the form “very questionable” and without “restraint” of the speech of the nationalist leader, who has a “an incredible talent for mistaking bladders for lanterns”.
A first tackle far from falling on deaf ears. “Mr Tapie is much better known as a sports commentator than a member of the National Assembly”, retorts the person concerned, pointing out the absences of the former Adidas boss in the hemicycle and in the Finance Committee of the Assembly. “Thank God, he is well seen from the Élysée”, he adds, alluding to the good relations maintained between President François Mitterrand and his future Minister of the City (1992-1993).
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Integration and unemployment
The rest of the debate is no less agitated. Strongly questioned on the question of integration by Salem Kacet, cardiologist originally from Algeria, member of the commission on the nationality code and deputy mayor of Roubaix, Jean-Marie Le Pen assures that he was the first elected tricolor “to propose the candidacy of a French Muslim from Algeria for the legislative elections” in 1957. Relaunched by the presenter of TF1 (“You don’t like Muslims very much? »), the one who has led the FN – since its creation in 1972 – fulminates: ” How so ? But I have plenty of them around me! »
“Don’t threaten me physically, he’ll kill you!” »
In the process, Bernard Tapie unearths a text from his evening critic who, when he was a deputy (from 1956 to 1952 then from 1986 to 1988), affirmed that Algerians and Muslims “are not a burden” for France. “It’s true that he was for integration, so there is no longer any reason for him to heat up his meetings by feeding Muslims to the fanatics of the National Front,” comments the related PS MP. Enough, again, to make Jean-Marie Le Pen jump: “You are a clown, sir. Don't say stupid things. And don't threaten me physically, you'll get angry! »
Then come to the table related subjects, no less electric, such as unemployment or illegal immigration – which continues to explode almost three decades later. After a report on the authorities' difficulties in stemming the phenomenon, then a testimony from a nurseryman (presented as an FN voter) not hiding his “fed up”Bernard Tapie defends his point of view. “If there is unemployment, it is because of immigrants. If there is insecurity, it is because of immigrants,” caricature-t-il.
A little earlier, the same one said to his frontist opponent: “Continue to fuel the hatred of people who are already affected by the fact that they are not working […] Continue to feed them immigrants by designating them as responsible. It's criminal, because it's false! » For his part, Jean-Marie Le Pen outlines his doctrine, which will not vary throughout his career.
“We are threatened by a wave, a submergence”
“In Europe and France, there is an insufficient birth rate. And in the Third World, a demographic explosion. […] We are threatened by a wave, a submergence,” he elaborates, judging that immigrants join France not for work, but to take advantage of the “social benefits” offered by the country in terms of health or even housing – the famous “suction pumps” still denounced today on the right of the political spectrum.
Record d’audience
Between their famous little phrases and their diametrically opposed visions (which clearly illustrate the persistent French divisions around the migration issue), Jean-Marie Le Pen and Bernard Tapie marked the history of television with this debate having recorded a record of hearing. Riding on this success, France 2 even decided, on June 1, 1994, to organize a “second round” between these two media beasts during the European elections. A new shock, for which the presenter of the public service channel greeted them with boxing gloves.
At the end of these verbal contests, the press had mainly given the left-wing elected official the winner. An analysis that… Laurent Tapie does not share. “In terms of form, my father dominated the debate. But looking back, one of the things I'm least proud of is that events have shown that on the merits of the discussion, it's not [lui] who was right”, did not hesitate to recognize the son of the ex-businessman on the microphone of the show “Les Incorrectibles” in October 2023.
