Former French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner was Frédéric Haziza’s guest on Radio J on Sunday.
Nicknamed the “French doctor”, Kouchner, who created Médecins du Monde, spent years treating children in Afghanistan, rescuing boat people in the China Sea, and even traveling through war-torn Lebanon and besieged Sarajevo.
He started the interview by quickly recalling the history of Israel, particularly mentioning the place of the Shoah in the founding of the country. Today, to designate Israel, he regretted that “we talk about colonization, hatred, the expansion of a territory, genocide – which we very often talk about without knowing what it is”.
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He said, on October 7, 2023, he felt “more than fear”, “a violence of feelings, and I was going to say hatred…” “’What did they do? Why?…’ So obviously, why? It’s in Gaza, Gaza was locked down, it was what we called ‘open hell’…” “October 7 is incredibly important, it’s vital. [La réponse d’Israël] is a brutal, and one might say bestial, reaction, completely incomprehensible to people and completely obvious to Israel. » Faced with October 7, “it was impossible [pour Israël ] not wanting to rebel, not wanting revenge, not reacting.”
While Frédéric Haziza asks him if he considers that Israel’s response is “completely justified”, he replies: “Justified not in the way it is perhaps made, but in any case, [il fallait] react militarily against the people who killed 1,200 people and kidnapped 300 people… It was impossible not to react. » 251 people were kidnapped. An estimated 97 hostages are still in the hands of Hamas and its accomplices.
Kouchner, head of diplomacy from 2007 to 2010 under the presidency of Nicolas Sarkozy, stressed that as a former humanitarian, he could only be outraged.
But, “a year later, we killed a lot of people, the figures are not really discussed”. Asked about the reliability of these Hamas figures, he said: “These figures were suspect, but they were confirmed by everyone”, notably the NGOs. “I don’t know if it’s 40,000 or 35,000, but it’s huge! We [Israël] massacred enormously and destroyed the majority, more than half, of the entire Gaza Strip. »
Gaza’s health ministry, controlled by Hamas, says more than 42,000 people have been killed or are presumed dead in the fighting so far. This toll, which cannot be verified and which does not distinguish between terrorists and civilians, includes the approximately 17,000 terrorists that Israel claims to have killed in combat and the civilians killed by the hundreds of rockets fired by the terrorist groups which fell inside the Gaza Strip.
Israel says it is working to minimize civilian casualties and points out that Hamas uses Gazans as human shields, waging its battles from civilian areas, including homes, hospitals, schools and mosques.
“It was an extremely brutal reaction. And not only brutal, but deadly. I’m not satisfied with it. I spent my life trying to stop wars […]. But that’s how it is; we [Israël] had to react,” Kouchner resignedly.
“That the reaction was legitimate, yes, it’s true; significant, yes. Now, the continuation of the war in this way… I always think that, not only must we defend the Jews and the people under attack in general for that matter, but the Jews in particular; but, I don’t think there is a military solution. » He regretted that all attempts to achieve peace over the decades had failed.
The former minister also strongly denounced the role of Iran and praised the courage of Iranian women who revolted against power,
“at the risk and expense of their lives”. He said Iran could not be allowed to become a nuclear power and said the world would be a safer place without the Tehran regime.
He said he was surprised by the fact that France did not react and welcomed the death of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, responsible for the death of 58 French soldiers in the attack against the French post, Drakkar, in Beirut, in 1983.
Bernard Kouchner then said he hoped for an early end to the war, without believing in it. He said he was “pained” by Emmanuel Macron’s recent statements calling for no more weapons to be delivered to Israel. “Why did he talk like that?” He is not an uneducated man… He was, vis-à-vis Israel, with an aggressiveness, in my opinion, which did not base his level of condemnation, unrelated to what he said. past…” “That surprises me about him, and it’s a big mistake,” he continued. “I want Israel to live!” Does President Macron want Israel to live? I think so, honestly, but he’s doing it wrong… We’ve helped Israel all the time. »
The former French minister was then questioned about anti-Semitism in France, deeply regretting the phenomenon. “Anti-Semitism is the science of fools. When we have nothing to think about, we can think about anti-Semitism. […] It is a very deep evil. » “France has always been anti-Semitic,” he then said. “But she wasn’t just anti-Semitic; it has also been the beacon of the world. It is also human rights. » “For a year, [l’antisémitisme] didn’t surprise me at all… We can see the figures. »
While condemning the positions and comments of members of France Insoumise and its leader Jean-Luc Mélenchon, Bernard Kouchner suddenly launched into comments which were then presented by the French press according to which the actions of the Israeli army in Gaza would justify anti-Semitism in France.
“How can we not be anti-Semitic when we see the damage done by the Israeli army?! Contemplating Gaza is still a field of murder, of disaster, of the breakup of families. Of course there was October 7, and God knows if that revolted me, but to take revenge with 40,000 deaths… If the figure is true – it must be increased a little, but there are many, many , a lot of people. It’s not true that the Gazans were on the side of Hamas. »
“With what is happening in Gaza, is it normal for us to be anti-Semitic? », asks Frédéric Haziza, taken aback. “It’s not normal, but the reaction can be like this. But it’s not okay to kill people! It’s not normal to go to war! […] This is a disproportionate war,” he continued. “The first thing I said, Israel’s military reaction after October 7 was legitimate and necessary, it was expected. But to continue like this and only have a military solution is a mistake. »
The last sentence of his interview was for the Gaza hostages: “We must release the hostages!” But for that, we must stop the war. »
In the wake of the pogrom perpetrated by the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas on October 7 in southern Israel, anti-Semitic acts jumped 1,000% in the last quarter of 2023. Since the start of 2024, they have almost tripled, with “ 887 facts” recorded in the first half of the year, according to the latest figures from the authorities (compared to the same period a year earlier).
