The Islamologist and political scientist, Gilles Kepel, was Henri Migout's guest on France 3 Côte d'Azur. He came there to talk about the conflict between Israel and Hamas. And also, its repercussions in the Alpes-Maritimes department.
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University professor, specialist in the Arab world, writer, his books have been translated into more than twenty languages. With his latest work, “The upheaval of the world: after October 7”Gilles Kepel deciphers for France 3 Côte d'Azur his vision of the world after “October 7, 2023”.
France 3 Côte d'Azur: In the title of your latest work, you use the term “upheaval”. It's a strong word. Did what happened on October 7 completely disrupt the world order as it had been established since the end of the Second World War?
Gilles Kepel: “Yes, it's an upheaval. In fact, the very notion of genocide, formerly reserved in current usage for the genocide of the Jews by the Nazis, has, since October 7, 2023, been used by a certain number of defenders of the Palestinian cause to incriminate the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza by the Israeli army.
We therefore see clearly how, today, the world is disorganized, in large part, around this event. Before, we had East versus West.
Today, we are instead in the presence of people who want to reorganize the world in a latitudinal way. That is to say, the South, in its geographical entirety, which suffered from colonization, against the North which would be guilty of it.
Currently, therefore, a certain number of people want to make this notion of colonization the absolute evil in the entire history of humanity. A movement of thoughts that we can see on many campuses. Other reactions, to this way of wanting to see the world of some, the election of Trump in the United States, or the rise in power of the extreme right in Europe, which considers that it is not at all d “I agree with this way of seeing things.”
France 3 Côte d’Azur: In your opinion, does the election of Donald Trump also risk upsetting the world order as we know it, or is it a non-event?
Gilles Kepel: “Yes, I think it will greatly influence the situation in the Middle East, and for all of us for that matter. It is also clear that with Ukraine, this is the big question. Will Trump want the Ukrainians to agree on a “deal” as he likes to say with Putin? The future will tell us soon.
In the Middle East, at least, it seems he wants peace. He no longer wants war like in the neoconservative era. He very strongly supports Israel, but he is also pushing very hard for Israel to stop its belligerent actions both in Lebanon and in the Gaza Strip. At the same time, his friend Elon Musk, the multi-billionaire, who makes “deals” like him, made contact with a certain number of Iranian officials at the United Nations in New York. Since then, we have noticed that the Iranians have ordered Hezbollah to enter into the negotiation process for a ceasefire in Lebanon.”
France 3: October 7, 2023 would have, according to one of the chapters of your latest work, led to fractures among the populations of Western countries. For example, in Nice, we noticed Israeli flags on the front of the town hall. Could this be symbolic of this shock wave? In Nice or in other Western countries?
Gilles Kepel : : “Yes obviously. In Nice, as elsewhere, there is very strong solidarity with the people who were the victims of the October 7 massacre. And even more so in cities, which like Nice, have a large Jewish community. Conversely, we were also able to see strong pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
In the Alpes-Maritimes, I am particularly thinking of “Science-Po Menton”, which I created around twenty years ago. Since last October, there have been incessant pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
So, we can clearly see that these polarizations and bipolarization of identity, which were more in the order of debate in the past, have become political manifestations which replace, in some way, the oppositions of the left and the right today.
In this way, the national debate changes direction with on one side the question of immigration and Islam, framed in terms of great replacement by the Far Right, the National Rally, Mr. Ciotti and others… And, on the other side, rebellious France which champions the symbiosis between Islamism and leftism.”
France 3: In Nice, all pro-Palestinian demonstrations were banned for several Saturdays in a row. Some spoke of shame for these bans. Is this a sign of a certain radicalization of the debate?
Gilles Kepel: “Indeed, we can really speak of radicalization of the debate. But a debate which no longer borrows from what we were used to. That is to say, in opposition, in parliamentary enclosures, between, what was commonly called, the right and the left. Here, we have the impression that our government is caught in the crossfire. On one side the Far Right, which runs the machine, and on the other France-Insoumise. And if one of them disconnects the power, it collapses.
In fact, our very institutions are today called into question, as they were established after the Second World War, by this type of debate. This augurs, in a very complex way, for the very future of the European Union which is currently completely torn by these questions.”
France 3: In the Alpes-Maritimes, Amira Zaiter, the pro-Palestinian activist, was sentenced to one year in prison, she appealed her trial for advocating terrorism. Is this judicial firmness the only response to this bipolarization of identity or are there other paths?
Also read > Apology for terrorism: Nice pro-Palestinian activist Amira Zaiter sentenced to one year in prison under electronic bracelet
Gilles Kepel:” So it all depends on how things are expressed. If we are in the presence of threats against people, for example, this falls under the law.
On the other hand, we have every right to be for Palestine or for the State of Israel. Just as we have every right to be revolted by the fact that more than 40,000 Palestinians died, that a million and a half Lebanese had to leave their homes. Just like again, we also have the right to be disgusted, revolted, upset by the pogromist raid of 1,200 people in Israel and the fact that 250 people were taken hostage.
The difficulty today is trying to explain. To try to provide elements to understand what is happening. However, it is clear that currently, we are rather taken hostage by those who shout their emotions on each side.
In this very specific context, with such a stake, and even if all these emotions are legitimate, it is essential to be able to understand what exactly it is about. Especially since the way we usually think does not allow us to understand this type of explosion which is new and which is extremely worrying.”
Gilles Kepel will present his new book The Upheaval of the World at the Roquebrune Cap Martin book fair on November 30.
