Paris Match. You were at the head of the DGSE during the Syrian civil war, between 2013 and 2017, what does the fall of Bashar al-Assad inspire in you?
Bernard Bajolet. The fall of the regime is good news, but we have lost a lot of time. This is something that France was working towards after the regime's repression in 2011. At the time, things did not go as hoped. On the one hand, the Damascus regime requested and obtained support from Hezbollah. Then, there was Obama's retreat at the end of August 2013, after the use of chemical weapons in Ghouta by the Bashar regime. The decline changed the situation. It discouraged opposition and allowed Russia to intervene, first in 2013, diplomatically, with chemical disarmament by the UN — on a proposal from Moscow. Then, in 2015 with the intervention of the Russian army. This time we lost means tens of thousands of additional deaths. Now it's behind us.
Did you expect such a quick outcome?
No, I didn't expect the diet to fall off so quickly. Everyone was surprised. I see there the considerable weakening of Hezbollah, an indirect consequence of the October 7 attacks in Israel, and the fact that Russia was occupied elsewhere with Ukraine. The Hayet Tahrir el-Sham (HTC) group, supported by Turkey, took advantage of the context to seize Aleppo and then the way was clear.
The rest after this ad
Bernard Bajolet.
AFP
/
© AFP or licensors
What does the personality of leader al-Joulani inspire you?
10 years ago, this is not a man we would have helped! He has a fairly marked jihadist background, but since then he has put water in his wine – as he doesn't drink it, I would rather say that he put chicory in his coffee! Very skillfully. He gave some evidence, some signals, notably by showing a certain tolerance towards Christian minorities.
Have you followed its evolution?
Yes. We had mapped the groups which were very numerous and their positioning in relation to human rights, women's rights and a certain number of criteria which meant that we helped certain groups and not others. We noticed that al-Joulani's movement was inspired more by Syrian nationalism than by an international agenda, but it remained too radical.
So there is hope that he will succeed in unifying Syria without falling into radical Islamism?
The question is whether he will keep his promises. Will he undertake the unity of Syria? Will he respect minorities? Christians, Druzes, Kurds, Alawites are potentially in danger. The question is also whether Joulani will succeed in imposing this moderate position on the other factions.
How do you explain that France today seems so distant and so poorly informed about what is happening in Syria?
At the time of François Hollande, we had very good information. We were present on the ground. The Americans' evasion caused damage. There was a radicalization of groups. The fact that Bashar released the radicals contributed to worsening the situation and ultimately the people who could be helped were fewer and fewer.
It is said that French intelligence has deserted the field.
We continued to help the Kurds in the north of the country. This led to disagreements with the head of the Turkish intelligence services, Hakkan Fidan, now Minister of Foreign Affairs. He is someone with whom we had a very cordial and friendly, but frank, dialogue. Among the Kurds, France was in the game and we had good information.
Today, they are suffering from the situation. Militias led by Turkey have just retaken the town of Manbij from them after fighting.
It is time to remember how loyal and reliable the Kurds of Syria have been to us. Without them, we would never have defeated Daesh. I hope that the new regime, far from fighting them, as Turkey currently would like, will fully integrate them into the new Syria.
At the start of your career as a diplomat, you were stationed in Syria. In your book “the sun no longer rises in the east” (Ed. Plon), you devote a fascinating chapter which also illustrates the violence of this regime. What view do you have, based on this experience, on the situation?
When I was stationed in Syria, a long time ago, I was struck by the hatred of the Sunni community towards the Alawites. I had a Syrian friend who belonged to the bourgeoisie and knew the Assad family, his father, an exiled general, had been driven from power by Hafez el-Assad – the father and predecessor of Bashar el-Assad, editor's note. He said: “One day we Sunnis will take revenge.” I was struck by this hatred in all walks of life from Sunnis in particular; it has only increased tenfold since 2011. We must hope that there will be no abuses. It is important that those who held important positions are treated with fair trials and that the Alawite community as a whole is not the victim of collective vengeance.
What should France's position be, but above all what can it claim today?
France must remain faithful to its traditional position: attachment to the integrity of Syria and its sovereignty. We must hope that respect for minorities does not imply the dismemberment of the country. Foreign interventions whatever they may be: Turkey in the North, the US which strikes Daesh will now have to obtain the agreement of the authorities. In the same way, Israel, which occupies part of the Golan, or the Russians, who still have bases in Tartous and Hmeymim, will only have to remain there with formal agreement from the authorities. France's advantage is that we have not compromised with the Bashar regime, with which we have cut all ties since 2011 and which we tried to bring down. France, like Europe, must be able to play an important role in the reconstruction of Syria. In the particular geopolitical context with what is happening in Africa, the war in Ukraine, it is important that countries like France regain a foothold in the Middle East. With all the uncertainties that one can imagine during this period.
Related News :