Rob Sheffield | The rock journalist who takes Taylor Swift seriously

After writing about the Beatles, David Bowie and the euphoria of karaoke, the journalist from Rolling Stone Rob Sheffield, one of the author's mentors, devotes his new book to a certain Taytay. Conversation around Heartbreak Is the National Anthem, an insightful dive, both funny and moving, generous and merciless, into the heart of a work whose ricochets continue to multiply.

I have always admired how in your articles you compare artists who, at first glance, belong to spectacularly distant universes. You have long liked to compare Taylor Swift and Morrissey, the former singer of the English group The Smiths, which may seem like heresy. To what extent are you doing it to provoke?

For me, it’s all there, in the music. Artists always keep an eye on others, they like to borrow ideas from others, make them their own.

It goes back to my childhood love of the Beatles. The Beatles listened to everything: music hall, country, R&B, blues, girl groups, Motown, Indian sitar, Vivaldi, Mozart, Hawaiian ukulele.

And they stole little bits of all that and sprinkled them here and there. This is what we call pop music today. This is the quilt that the Beatles created by putting together everything they loved. Taylor Swift is as musically omnivorous as the Beatles.

At the beginning of the book, I compare her to New Orleans rapper Lil Wayne and it's amazing how much they have in common, how they exploded at the same time, how they were both very prolific then. That's what's the most fun about my job, finding these connections between Taylor and Morrissey, between Taylor and Bob Dylan.

Another of the main ideas of your work concerns the sagacity of young women, who have always guided and defined the history of popular music, but whose good taste is too often despised. Why do we still allow ourselves to be condescending towards them, when they have so often been right?

It was very present in her early days, in the 2000s. Because Taylor was still a teenager herself, her music was considered candy pop, even though she was already a major songwriter. It continued even after she won the Grammy for Album of the Year in 2010.

And for me, it's clear that this contempt is closely linked to the fact that she was a young woman, who spoke about her life, who started from her personal experiences, even if she made it into something surprisingly universal.

But if you look at where pop music is in 2024, it's young women writing about their own lives who dominate: Chappell Roan, Sabrina Carpenter, Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo. They all have their uniqueness, but occupy a territory that Taylor has cleared.

You interviewed her a few times. Has it changed your relationship to his music?

It confirmed to me that she's a music geek. I had already noticed it when listening to her songs, but she has an encyclopedic musical mind. She is a very erudite, curious, passionate music lover.

During one of our interviews, we talked at length about his fascination with the Beatles and with George Harrison's ex-wife, Pattie Boyd. She was very intrigued by her role as a muse for George and Eric Clapton. It is for this reason that since then, I have been convinced that Getaway Car [tirée de son album Reputation, 2017] is inspired by this love triangle.

Every time Taylor Swift releases a new album, I have a compassionate thought for you who need to update your ranking of all her songs, from best to worst, published by Rolling Stone. How do you go about it?

It’s a list I’m constantly updating in my head. I would update it every week if I could, because my love for each song fluctuates. I think this is characteristic of an artist who writes such complex and original songs.

So for me, it's always exciting when she releases a new album and I get to put her on the list. I updated the list shortly after the publication of The Tortured Poets Department [2024]but I was only just getting to know these songs. Some of them grew on me a lot, and others not at all. Obviously, there will be movement during the next update.

Check out the rankings of Taylor Swift's 274 songs

Some like to predict a collective weariness in the face of Taylor Swift, a loss of breath. Is this possible?

The Beatles joked about journalists who kept asking them: When do you think the bubble will burst? And as we now know, the bubble never burst. Some thought Motown was just a passing fad, but it is the most popular pop music of the last century.

I think if this had to happen for Taylor Swift, it would have happened by now.