François Bayrou was clear: if there is no agreement between the social partners on the proposals to improve the pension reform, they will still be the subject of a bill. Is this the commitment you were waiting for?
This is progress, it is important that the national representation has its say, whatever the outcome of the discussions between the unions and employers' organizations. Afterwards, at the CFDT, we are not part of the scenario where there would be no agreement. On the contrary, we will seek an agreement, to stabilize our proposals, before a debate in Parliament takes place. This is an opportunity that has never been opened since 2023.
The Prime Minister indicated that the 64 years are also on the table. What are you going to propose? The return at 62?
Our position is the return to 62 years. We want things to change on age. François Bayrou told us that it would be possible, and he did so.
“Countries with a higher starting age have developed a real culture of prevention and occupational health…”
Around us, the retirement age is higher: 67 in Italy and Denmark, 65 in Spain and Belgium, 66 in the United Kingdom… Why could France be the opposite of its neighbors?
We cannot compare the pension systems in France and elsewhere through the prism of a single criterion. We have neither the same demographics nor the same history of the construction of social protection. Our pay-as-you-go system is very particular, it is a precious exception. I would like to be able to compare, but France is the country in Europe where there are the most workplace accidents, including fatalities. However, countries which have a higher starting age have developed a real culture of prevention, health at work… The conditions of work are not the same. We must therefore be wary of comparisons which, in general, always repeat the same discourse…
Beyond the age of 64, several issues emerge, arduousness, broken careers… What are your proposals?
We must move forward with the recognition of arduousness. 88% of occupational illnesses are linked to repetitive actions, these are musculoskeletal disorders. However, they are not recognized as criteria of arduousness, it is a total aberration. We want to reintegrate them. I say reinstate because they were removed in 2017. Concretely, these employees and agents cannot reach the legal retirement age. On broken careers, it will be necessary to link the subject of pensions to that of work.
“The employment rate of seniors is a powerful lever”
A condition was set: that these improvements do not worsen the financial situation of pension plans. However, they are already in deficit. Is this an impossible equation?
-One of the avenues is the employment rate of seniors. This is a powerful lever. In 2022, it was estimated that a ten-point increase in senior employment would resolve the financial problem. We underestimate the seriousness of this subject. Becoming unwanted in your company is a terrible thing to experience. And a senior who is no longer employed means less social security contributions.
Medef refuses to increase labor costs and increase contributions. How to finance these improvements?
Everything must be on the table. The CFDT is proposing an increase in employer contributions to finance the hardship and inequalities that persist, including the 38% gap between the pensions of men and women.
Medef also wants to open up the subject of capitalization…
In the retirement savings system, which exists particularly in large groups, the employer contributes. If Medef wants to work on it, I look at it with interest, that means that they are ready to pay and that the door to an increase in contributions is not closed.
“The point system and the time savings account are the new social pact that must be invented”
The CFDT does not defend retirement, but it is a difficult system to implement…
The regime of the future is the universal regime, by point. Point-based retirement and the universal time savings account are the new social pact that must be invented. Yes, retirement by points is complex to implement, but we need political leaders who agree to be in it for the long term. A point regime is put in place over ten or fifteen years. As long as pensions are brandished as an electoral standard, it will be difficult to install it.
With this renegotiation entrusted to the social partners, is this your revenge on macronism?
I'm not into revenge. It is recognition of our expertise and our legitimacy. My role is to obtain improvements. We are coming out of two years of silence, it is a victory for the workers.
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